Reach9
Apr 11, 04:45 PM
"Perfectly?" Really?
I can do everything you listed above in iOS just as well as Android - and in many cases better - except in the area of notifications. An area in which iOS truly does suck. How Apple has not yet fixed this boggles the mind.
"Perfectly" as in, in my opinion perfectly. You don't have to agree with me.
No, you can't.
Checking email and Browsing the Internet is better on a bigger screen. Listening to songs is universal. Texting, some Android phones vibrate when you touch the keys making it feel more real. Multitasking, Android did that long before iOS did and does it in a better way, especially with the "kill all open apps" option. Notifications..that's a no brainer. Ability to open Office files, yes the iPhone does that well, but it's much better with a bigger screen. Navigation system..using an Android you don't have to pay $70 (TomTom) for something which should've come with your device. Basic tools, yes iPhone does that too.
Again, it's preference.
If you're going to use "late" as a barometer of success, Android was "later" than iOS at doing just about everything else.
It was late because other Android smartphones already had these features. These are key features that a smartphone should have, and the iPhone didn't. Again, keep in mind my definition of a smartphone is different than yours.
What did Android release which was later than the iOS which defined a smartphone?
Yep, like an...iPad? :p
Yup, but not many people want to lug around a 10" tablet and would like the extra screen real estate on their phones. I know i would.
Of course. Those bajillion apps, most of which completely destroy Android in quality, are an unimportant aside.
If Google thinks like you - that the App Store is merely a "bonus feature" - this war will be won by Apple.
Of course the App Store apps are higher quality, but conveniently you didn't read when i said, for argument sake..
Imagine your iPhone without the App store and all the apps you downloaded from it. Now imagine the HTC EVO without the Android app store. Which is the better smartphone? It's pretty obvious if you ask me.
Anyway, i'll have an iPod Touch for the App Store features. Thus having the best of both worlds, i'll be able to enjoy a productive smartphone using Android, and a nice media device with the App Store.
sure i still use my iPhone 4 for some apps i can't get on the android, but apps r really the only thing that still saves the iPhone. of course its stupid to argue about that on a "mac"rumors site, so i'll just ***** up ^^
Well, apps aren't the only thing that saves the iPhone. But, yeah sadly, you're right.
I can do everything you listed above in iOS just as well as Android - and in many cases better - except in the area of notifications. An area in which iOS truly does suck. How Apple has not yet fixed this boggles the mind.
"Perfectly" as in, in my opinion perfectly. You don't have to agree with me.
No, you can't.
Checking email and Browsing the Internet is better on a bigger screen. Listening to songs is universal. Texting, some Android phones vibrate when you touch the keys making it feel more real. Multitasking, Android did that long before iOS did and does it in a better way, especially with the "kill all open apps" option. Notifications..that's a no brainer. Ability to open Office files, yes the iPhone does that well, but it's much better with a bigger screen. Navigation system..using an Android you don't have to pay $70 (TomTom) for something which should've come with your device. Basic tools, yes iPhone does that too.
Again, it's preference.
If you're going to use "late" as a barometer of success, Android was "later" than iOS at doing just about everything else.
It was late because other Android smartphones already had these features. These are key features that a smartphone should have, and the iPhone didn't. Again, keep in mind my definition of a smartphone is different than yours.
What did Android release which was later than the iOS which defined a smartphone?
Yep, like an...iPad? :p
Yup, but not many people want to lug around a 10" tablet and would like the extra screen real estate on their phones. I know i would.
Of course. Those bajillion apps, most of which completely destroy Android in quality, are an unimportant aside.
If Google thinks like you - that the App Store is merely a "bonus feature" - this war will be won by Apple.
Of course the App Store apps are higher quality, but conveniently you didn't read when i said, for argument sake..
Imagine your iPhone without the App store and all the apps you downloaded from it. Now imagine the HTC EVO without the Android app store. Which is the better smartphone? It's pretty obvious if you ask me.
Anyway, i'll have an iPod Touch for the App Store features. Thus having the best of both worlds, i'll be able to enjoy a productive smartphone using Android, and a nice media device with the App Store.
sure i still use my iPhone 4 for some apps i can't get on the android, but apps r really the only thing that still saves the iPhone. of course its stupid to argue about that on a "mac"rumors site, so i'll just ***** up ^^
Well, apps aren't the only thing that saves the iPhone. But, yeah sadly, you're right.
Macnoviz
Jul 20, 04:23 PM
Sort of proves the point i was trying to make, at some point mose users wil rather get a beter IO subsystem than more processing power.
Actually, that was my point, but now that you mention it, reversed hyperthreading would solve some problems.
In the long run (really long run, I'm talking quantumcomputers here) however, you are right, and innovation in computing will mostly come from software and how you tell the computer what to do. The nec-plus-ultra would be thinking of a result and getting it (or saying it to your computer) like a photoshop user going, well I would like the sun being more dominant in that picture, the power lines removed, and make those persons look younger. Boom. It happens.
Actually, that was my point, but now that you mention it, reversed hyperthreading would solve some problems.
In the long run (really long run, I'm talking quantumcomputers here) however, you are right, and innovation in computing will mostly come from software and how you tell the computer what to do. The nec-plus-ultra would be thinking of a result and getting it (or saying it to your computer) like a photoshop user going, well I would like the sun being more dominant in that picture, the power lines removed, and make those persons look younger. Boom. It happens.
VanNess
Aug 5, 10:20 PM
Well, if you're located and in SF and are you are a Safari user, or have questions about Safari, or maybe even questions about what SJ shows Safari-wise or other webkit-related content in Leopard, you don't have to shell out for WWDC admission, because the Safari/webkit folks are hosting a freebie (http://webkit.opendarwin.org/blog/?p=63) on Tuesday at 7 that's open to all.
If you are a Mac OS X developer, a browser hacker, a web developer, or just someone with an interest in cool technology, then come hobnob with WebKit contributors from Apple and elsewhere. Unlike WWDC itself, this event will be open to anyone who is interested free of charge. Also, it will be unbelievably awesome. We promise!
If you are a Mac OS X developer, a browser hacker, a web developer, or just someone with an interest in cool technology, then come hobnob with WebKit contributors from Apple and elsewhere. Unlike WWDC itself, this event will be open to anyone who is interested free of charge. Also, it will be unbelievably awesome. We promise!
Dagless
Aug 18, 05:36 AM
Sweet Mary and the orphans if that thing gets near to my entertainment centre I'll kill it.
awesomebase
Mar 31, 07:08 PM
Google's "openness" reminds me of the days when people got all excited about being able to use different fonts and font sizes... sure it is exciting to see the possibilities and to be able to "customize" your documents, etc., but in the end, you only end up using a hand full of them (despite thousands of them being available), and most of what is being used is STILL what was the default choices back then.
Just like a kid that thinks they're going to be greater and better than those older than them because they know better; well, surprise, surprise... Google has turned out to be worse than IBM or Microsoft or Apple ever was. The deal with them will just keep getting worse and worse until people come up with genuine alternatives to their constant lying and deceptiveness (oh, yes, picking up 10M wi-fi SSIDs was purely accidental...).
I don't blame them for having to switch gears on this... I blame them for not being able to see 5 mins in front of their face on this issue (like so many other things) and insisting that "they're" correct every time it is obvious to everyone outside their company that they're not...
Just like a kid that thinks they're going to be greater and better than those older than them because they know better; well, surprise, surprise... Google has turned out to be worse than IBM or Microsoft or Apple ever was. The deal with them will just keep getting worse and worse until people come up with genuine alternatives to their constant lying and deceptiveness (oh, yes, picking up 10M wi-fi SSIDs was purely accidental...).
I don't blame them for having to switch gears on this... I blame them for not being able to see 5 mins in front of their face on this issue (like so many other things) and insisting that "they're" correct every time it is obvious to everyone outside their company that they're not...
Midirose
Nov 28, 10:56 PM
Here is another little tid bit about Universal Music you may not be aware of. The original MP3.com was bought out by Universal Music a few years back. Prior to Universal, MP3.com was privately owned and had music from thousands of indie artist from around the world and no major label artist. You could listen to the artist music for free, but you could also purchase their music for download or actual CD. There was a lot of really awful music there but there was a lot of very good music there also. Some unsigned artist sold thousands of CD around the world like my band. After Universal bought MP3.com they destroyed the catalog even though the original owner offered to purchase it. Economics would lead me to think that Universal believed that the millions of indie songs sold on MP3.com was a direct threat to them not meeting their year over year projections, and it was. Get rid of the competition and get money for nothing.........sounds like big business trying to please their share holders. It is no wonder that our culture is going to hel#, when fair play and morals give way to profits. And yes most labels are pimps and you know who their hoes are.......our favorite artists. I hope Apple does not cave to this type of extortion!!!
powers74
Apr 10, 09:57 PM
If I think the new FCP sucks I'll be b*tching and moaning too. ;)
Lethal
Ha! fair enough.
Lethal
Ha! fair enough.
Moyank24
Apr 27, 12:23 PM
I read most of it. I haven't been carrying my birth certificate. It spent most of its time im Mom's china closet, where it still faded.
I guess you missed the part where the one that is being shown is a certified copy.
Maybe the certificate is legitimate, but I think the original short form would have been more convincing. I like Obama, but I loathe his extreme liberalism.
Maybe?? For someone who isn't a birther, you sure sound like one.
Apparently the short form wasn't convincing enough...which is why the long form has now been presented.
I guess you missed the part where the one that is being shown is a certified copy.
Maybe the certificate is legitimate, but I think the original short form would have been more convincing. I like Obama, but I loathe his extreme liberalism.
Maybe?? For someone who isn't a birther, you sure sound like one.
Apparently the short form wasn't convincing enough...which is why the long form has now been presented.
daneoni
Aug 26, 04:08 PM
To be honest i dont really care anymore. As it is, im leaning away from Apple portables and moving to their desktops. Maybe just maybe if the 15" MBP sports a 16x DL superdrive, Magnetic latch Firewire 800 and maybe an extra USB port i may consider. But to be honest the MacPro is looking like a better candidate for me. My PB is fine my mobile computing needs, its time for a powerful workhorse thats more stable and reliable, namely, the MacPro
shawnce
Aug 17, 11:05 AM
When playing a game on a PC, you have DirectX to take full advantage of the hardware, and your processor is usually tagged consuming any and all cycles it can for the game. On a Mac, multithreading, and sharing the processor among apps seems to be the flow of the computing experience. You should really do deeper analysis/research before making generally incorrect statements like the above.
applefanDrew
Apr 11, 05:55 PM
You're right, but here's where i think is the difference. Browsing the Internet, Calendar, Checking Mail, Listening to songs, Texting, Multitasking, Notifications, Cut-Copy-Paste, ability to open and use Office files, Navigation system, basic tools like Currency converters, To-Do lists etc. These are what i believe encompasses in a "smartphone", and here's the newsflash: Android OS meets them perfectly.
I'm not talking about widgets, customization, dynamic wallapers etc
The iPhone was late on MMS, Multitasking, Cut-Copy-Paste, and now it's going to be a notification system. Plus, browsing the internet, checking mail and practically everything is much better on a bigger screen.
I feel the App Store is just an added feature, and that's why i'd get an iPod Touch for.
Imagine your iPhone without the App store and all the apps you downloaded from it. Now imagine the HTC EVO without the Android app store. Which is the better smartphone? It's pretty obvious if you ask me.
Android OS already has the "smartphone" features down, and they're just working on the bonus features such as the Android App Store.
iOS on the other hand is catching up to these "smartphone" features. My old Nokia E63 had a better notification system than the iPhone, and that's pathetic.
Yea that is obvious. The iPhone is better.
I'm not talking about widgets, customization, dynamic wallapers etc
The iPhone was late on MMS, Multitasking, Cut-Copy-Paste, and now it's going to be a notification system. Plus, browsing the internet, checking mail and practically everything is much better on a bigger screen.
I feel the App Store is just an added feature, and that's why i'd get an iPod Touch for.
Imagine your iPhone without the App store and all the apps you downloaded from it. Now imagine the HTC EVO without the Android app store. Which is the better smartphone? It's pretty obvious if you ask me.
Android OS already has the "smartphone" features down, and they're just working on the bonus features such as the Android App Store.
iOS on the other hand is catching up to these "smartphone" features. My old Nokia E63 had a better notification system than the iPhone, and that's pathetic.
Yea that is obvious. The iPhone is better.
Nuck81
Dec 10, 11:57 AM
https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEha744c2j-RbiGeGrLuR8AZbpMgISvTW6xB-yIDyrqiNKhKFsC_eU7qpbGNrHnFjn_fRezX-HpXz37zelgU4a3ddibTisOQoOBzm3F3TO6_F8i0l5pMP3QwbVSa5A-LqXQsjyE-MunLYtk/s400/Haters_Gonna_Hate_20.jpg
ccrandall77
Aug 11, 12:56 PM
Hahahahaha you do not know much about the cell business here in the U.S. T-Mobile uses Cingulars network in a better part of the country, and Cingular uses T-Mobiles in the other parts, under a roaming deal agreement they made when Deustche Telecom bought Voicestream creating T-Mobile.
Hahahaha you obviously have not been a customer of either T-Mo or Cingular. And if you looked at their coverage maps, Cingular's coverage is quite a bit better than T-Mobile's. Yes, they do share SOME towers, but not all.
Hahahaha you obviously have not been a customer of either T-Mo or Cingular. And if you looked at their coverage maps, Cingular's coverage is quite a bit better than T-Mobile's. Yes, they do share SOME towers, but not all.
carmenodie
Mar 22, 01:12 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)
Please who the hell would take a step way back by going with Samsung. Yeah them tablets look cool and very thin but so damn what. Apple has the ecosystem and the customer service. Also the fit and finish of the iPad is so much more awesome then those Sammy tablets. I don't hate but come on! Samsung doesn't even control the effing software. All they can do is skin the Honeycomb OS. I'm not impressed.
Please who the hell would take a step way back by going with Samsung. Yeah them tablets look cool and very thin but so damn what. Apple has the ecosystem and the customer service. Also the fit and finish of the iPad is so much more awesome then those Sammy tablets. I don't hate but come on! Samsung doesn't even control the effing software. All they can do is skin the Honeycomb OS. I'm not impressed.
fivepoint
Mar 22, 12:56 PM
Precisely. The UN mandate is to enforce a no-fly zone, amongst other things, tasks that are particularly suited for certain nations. I'm no gung-ho supporter of this action in Libya, but it strikes me as similar to Bosnia, with the real political pressure coming particularly from France for very real reasons.
Expect the overt US involvement to rapidly scale back soon.
Did Ronald Reagan get a go-ahead from Congress in 1986 for attacking Libya?
No he did not. It was a mistake then, it is a mistake now. The only difference is, I oppose it in all circumstances, regardless of who's president. You only oppose it when it's a Republican in office.
Wait a second. Wait a second. You are trying to compare the media's portrayal of GWB over about SEVEN years, TWO wars, and HOW MANY lies to Libya and less then ONE WEEK. The Lybia thing has been going on for about a day or so. In the FIRST days of the Afghanistan war, did you hear ANY mainstream media criticizing GWB? In the FIRST days of the Iraq war, did you hear ANY mainstream media criticizing GWB? Democrats were falling all over themselves to support the President and the need to get those WMDs, which is why after almost 6 years, it was a defining issue of the presidential campaign. The candidates 5 years later were all explaining why they supported one war then, but not now after all the lies were exposed, or how they were against it all along. Not to mention Afghanistan after 7 years. There were a few, unlike now, where there are a lot.
This is THE FIRST WEEK of this thing, and NBC nightly news had their entire story about: criticism from congress; inability of white house to deal with that problem, partly because in Brazil; late involvement; involvement here but not in Somalia, Congo, etc..., risk that Ghaddafi would survive this and remain in power; lack of real Arab support and weak coalition; and fact that opposition is disorganized, poorly armed and leaderless, and probably won't be able to win without military support on the ground.
That's pretty hard reporting, and I'm very happy Congress is being critical. Almost everything Fivepoint, the GOP and the Democrats who are speaking out have said is a valid concern. They should have done this during week ONE of Afghanistan, and Iraq. I know I don't want another one of those.
(edit) Yesterday, NPR was talking about Candidate Obama vs. President Obama, and pointed out Candidate Obama's statements about ONLY CONGRESS CAN DECLARE WAR. They discussed, at length, prior presidents assumption of power, Obama's use of it and how guest couldn't imagine a new president opposed to a power like this giving it up. So, maybe you should watch some NBC, ABC, CBS and listen to some NPR. Mind you, in FPs defense, I spent 16 hours in the car since this all started, so I've probably heard every story...
Donald Trump Ivanka Trump
donald trump daughter wedding
donald trump daughter ivanka.
crystal-studded dress,
Expect the overt US involvement to rapidly scale back soon.
Did Ronald Reagan get a go-ahead from Congress in 1986 for attacking Libya?
No he did not. It was a mistake then, it is a mistake now. The only difference is, I oppose it in all circumstances, regardless of who's president. You only oppose it when it's a Republican in office.
Wait a second. Wait a second. You are trying to compare the media's portrayal of GWB over about SEVEN years, TWO wars, and HOW MANY lies to Libya and less then ONE WEEK. The Lybia thing has been going on for about a day or so. In the FIRST days of the Afghanistan war, did you hear ANY mainstream media criticizing GWB? In the FIRST days of the Iraq war, did you hear ANY mainstream media criticizing GWB? Democrats were falling all over themselves to support the President and the need to get those WMDs, which is why after almost 6 years, it was a defining issue of the presidential campaign. The candidates 5 years later were all explaining why they supported one war then, but not now after all the lies were exposed, or how they were against it all along. Not to mention Afghanistan after 7 years. There were a few, unlike now, where there are a lot.
This is THE FIRST WEEK of this thing, and NBC nightly news had their entire story about: criticism from congress; inability of white house to deal with that problem, partly because in Brazil; late involvement; involvement here but not in Somalia, Congo, etc..., risk that Ghaddafi would survive this and remain in power; lack of real Arab support and weak coalition; and fact that opposition is disorganized, poorly armed and leaderless, and probably won't be able to win without military support on the ground.
That's pretty hard reporting, and I'm very happy Congress is being critical. Almost everything Fivepoint, the GOP and the Democrats who are speaking out have said is a valid concern. They should have done this during week ONE of Afghanistan, and Iraq. I know I don't want another one of those.
(edit) Yesterday, NPR was talking about Candidate Obama vs. President Obama, and pointed out Candidate Obama's statements about ONLY CONGRESS CAN DECLARE WAR. They discussed, at length, prior presidents assumption of power, Obama's use of it and how guest couldn't imagine a new president opposed to a power like this giving it up. So, maybe you should watch some NBC, ABC, CBS and listen to some NPR. Mind you, in FPs defense, I spent 16 hours in the car since this all started, so I've probably heard every story...
Benjamins
Mar 31, 06:14 PM
I completely agree, but let's be honest, Apple and Microsoft fans are no different.
true, but the smugness and self righteousness of Google fanboys are so much worse.
true, but the smugness and self righteousness of Google fanboys are so much worse.
AoWolf
Sep 13, 10:05 AM
I remember thinking "My goodness what would I ever do with all this power" when playing with the apple store quad woodcrests. The future is very bright :-)
Antares
Sep 13, 11:55 AM
and this got negative votes because...??????????
Yeesh!
One reason this is negative is because there were no performance numbers given.
Yeesh!
One reason this is negative is because there were no performance numbers given.
jephrey
Jul 14, 11:47 PM
I assume that the PS move is due to heat. That thing generates heat, and if it can vent in a different location or through a different air channel than the processors, the I think that's good... And 2 drive bays is effin spectacular. I myself am fine with 1, but if I can get a bracket and put a couple HDs in that spot then cool. It'd be cool if apple made it usable that way. I would sure like more bays, but just having that real estate for them, and a solution to cleanly mount them would be nice.
Jephrey
Jephrey
juicedropsdeuce
Apr 6, 11:46 AM
Really what sort of clients ?
Some people do more than use Final Cut for making YouTube videos. FYI. :rolleyes:
Some people do more than use Final Cut for making YouTube videos. FYI. :rolleyes:
k995
Apr 20, 01:39 PM
Seriously the iPhone looks like Prada? I'd got to be blind to not notice that.
The google nexus s looks like an iphone? I'd got to be blind to not notice that.
yet the same criteria apple uses can be used on the prada.
But glad to see you find those arguments rubbish.
The only similarity is the rounded corners and even the rounded corners look very different.
What exactly is similar if I may know?
Rows of icons?
Dock at the bottom of screen?
Capacitive screen (prada was the first btw)
Button at the bottom, speaker above camera at the same place ,...
Enough simularities as the current charges of apple against samsung/htc and google .
The google nexus s looks like an iphone? I'd got to be blind to not notice that.
yet the same criteria apple uses can be used on the prada.
But glad to see you find those arguments rubbish.
The only similarity is the rounded corners and even the rounded corners look very different.
What exactly is similar if I may know?
Rows of icons?
Dock at the bottom of screen?
Capacitive screen (prada was the first btw)
Button at the bottom, speaker above camera at the same place ,...
Enough simularities as the current charges of apple against samsung/htc and google .
rtdunham
Aug 27, 09:15 AM
I believe the 2.33 GHz Merom chip debuted at the same price as the 2.16 GHz Yonah when it was released. The prices of MBPs certainly haven't fallen. Apple has just been enjoying the extra profits from Intel's price drops of the past few months.
good information, logical thought.
do you think apple's $100M payoff to Creative*, and possible need to restate financial information for recent quarters/years because of questionable executive compensation, make the company more reluctant than might otherwise have been the case to intro new chips that are, in the beginning more costly and thus will reduce profits?
*--i know, i know, it's only 1% of apple's cash reserves. But that's not meaningless money: trust me, companies make plenty of strategic decisions that affect their products' features, support quality, whatever, over amounts far less than $100M.
good information, logical thought.
do you think apple's $100M payoff to Creative*, and possible need to restate financial information for recent quarters/years because of questionable executive compensation, make the company more reluctant than might otherwise have been the case to intro new chips that are, in the beginning more costly and thus will reduce profits?
*--i know, i know, it's only 1% of apple's cash reserves. But that's not meaningless money: trust me, companies make plenty of strategic decisions that affect their products' features, support quality, whatever, over amounts far less than $100M.
ccrandall77
Aug 11, 03:50 PM
Ever heard of DoCoMo?
And....
Trying to say that DoCoMo is the majority of the other 19%? Doubt it.
And....
Trying to say that DoCoMo is the majority of the other 19%? Doubt it.
notabadname
Apr 6, 03:50 PM
Wow, that's success that only a Ballmer could love.
Apple does need some competition. I hope these competitors focus on some of the Apple shortcomings like the religious adherence to the Cocoa Touch UI. Ideally there would be a more hybrid iOS/MacOS functionality in an iPad such that it could morph up to a more desktop like experience when docked. And conversely, it seems like MacBook Air/ Mac OS X Lion is getting a more iOS like feel. There's a middle ground there that Apple needs to get to. I suspect they will. But as with tethering, and allowing re-duplication of core apps by third parties, it will take Apple a while to let go here and allow the iPad to become that perfect combo.
They still seem to ultimately strike this balance better than any other vendor.
Not really. They built an excellent product, at what is still a leading price point, all without ANY competition.
It is the other manufacturers that need Apple as a competitor. First the iPod, THEN all the clones that came out after, the iPhone, THEN all the clones and finally the iPad THEN . . . . you get the idea. Apple has been creating innovative products, in a vacuum, that cause the rest of the market to follow, for decades, just fine. Unlike other manufacturers, they strive for excellence with out the need for a product to "duplicate" and spurn them on.
Apple does need some competition. I hope these competitors focus on some of the Apple shortcomings like the religious adherence to the Cocoa Touch UI. Ideally there would be a more hybrid iOS/MacOS functionality in an iPad such that it could morph up to a more desktop like experience when docked. And conversely, it seems like MacBook Air/ Mac OS X Lion is getting a more iOS like feel. There's a middle ground there that Apple needs to get to. I suspect they will. But as with tethering, and allowing re-duplication of core apps by third parties, it will take Apple a while to let go here and allow the iPad to become that perfect combo.
They still seem to ultimately strike this balance better than any other vendor.
Not really. They built an excellent product, at what is still a leading price point, all without ANY competition.
It is the other manufacturers that need Apple as a competitor. First the iPod, THEN all the clones that came out after, the iPhone, THEN all the clones and finally the iPad THEN . . . . you get the idea. Apple has been creating innovative products, in a vacuum, that cause the rest of the market to follow, for decades, just fine. Unlike other manufacturers, they strive for excellence with out the need for a product to "duplicate" and spurn them on.
